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A hang glider, sudden unexpected lift to 25,000 feet altitude, what could do this?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowAt great altitude, what conditions are needed to support a human community?Reducing atmospheric pressure on Snowball EarthWhat would the weather on this continent be like?What could cause a sudden dip in magnetosphere?What would be the major weather patterns on this map?What could make a planet have regular extreme weather?What could cause sudden localized atmospheric pressure change?Could I get some guidance on this map in progress?How high in altitude could a fog reasonably exist?At what altitudes would clouds form to produce rain on this world and with what general severity?Is this sudden global cooling scenario plausible?Could this planet exist?










2












$begingroup$


This is the third in a series of 5 (at this point) questions. It's not relevant to this question, but for anyone who's curious this was the first, this the second.



Conditions for this question are:



  • Earth-normal atmospheric pressure/content. (Or close)


  • I'm aware that over 38,000 feet has been achieved by exploiting thermals. This slow and steady way is not what I need.


  • I need the ascent to be sudden and unexpected (for an arguably inexperienced pilot), be it; meteorological, geothermal or by some other (not fantasy) means.


  • It should not kill the pilot - if you can plausably argue a volcanic erruption - then fine but the pilot must survive (unconsciousness is just fine though).


Any landscape type can be specified in supporting arguments within the answer, sea nearby, desert, mountains, geisers, volcanoes, icefields - anything that could feasably contribute to the desired sudden lift.



A hang glider, the pilot taken by surprise, there is a sudden unexpected lift to 25,000 feet altitude, what could do this?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I'd swear I read an article several years ago about someone over Australia having something like this happen.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Richardson
    35 mins ago















2












$begingroup$


This is the third in a series of 5 (at this point) questions. It's not relevant to this question, but for anyone who's curious this was the first, this the second.



Conditions for this question are:



  • Earth-normal atmospheric pressure/content. (Or close)


  • I'm aware that over 38,000 feet has been achieved by exploiting thermals. This slow and steady way is not what I need.


  • I need the ascent to be sudden and unexpected (for an arguably inexperienced pilot), be it; meteorological, geothermal or by some other (not fantasy) means.


  • It should not kill the pilot - if you can plausably argue a volcanic erruption - then fine but the pilot must survive (unconsciousness is just fine though).


Any landscape type can be specified in supporting arguments within the answer, sea nearby, desert, mountains, geisers, volcanoes, icefields - anything that could feasably contribute to the desired sudden lift.



A hang glider, the pilot taken by surprise, there is a sudden unexpected lift to 25,000 feet altitude, what could do this?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I'd swear I read an article several years ago about someone over Australia having something like this happen.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Richardson
    35 mins ago













2












2








2





$begingroup$


This is the third in a series of 5 (at this point) questions. It's not relevant to this question, but for anyone who's curious this was the first, this the second.



Conditions for this question are:



  • Earth-normal atmospheric pressure/content. (Or close)


  • I'm aware that over 38,000 feet has been achieved by exploiting thermals. This slow and steady way is not what I need.


  • I need the ascent to be sudden and unexpected (for an arguably inexperienced pilot), be it; meteorological, geothermal or by some other (not fantasy) means.


  • It should not kill the pilot - if you can plausably argue a volcanic erruption - then fine but the pilot must survive (unconsciousness is just fine though).


Any landscape type can be specified in supporting arguments within the answer, sea nearby, desert, mountains, geisers, volcanoes, icefields - anything that could feasably contribute to the desired sudden lift.



A hang glider, the pilot taken by surprise, there is a sudden unexpected lift to 25,000 feet altitude, what could do this?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




This is the third in a series of 5 (at this point) questions. It's not relevant to this question, but for anyone who's curious this was the first, this the second.



Conditions for this question are:



  • Earth-normal atmospheric pressure/content. (Or close)


  • I'm aware that over 38,000 feet has been achieved by exploiting thermals. This slow and steady way is not what I need.


  • I need the ascent to be sudden and unexpected (for an arguably inexperienced pilot), be it; meteorological, geothermal or by some other (not fantasy) means.


  • It should not kill the pilot - if you can plausably argue a volcanic erruption - then fine but the pilot must survive (unconsciousness is just fine though).


Any landscape type can be specified in supporting arguments within the answer, sea nearby, desert, mountains, geisers, volcanoes, icefields - anything that could feasably contribute to the desired sudden lift.



A hang glider, the pilot taken by surprise, there is a sudden unexpected lift to 25,000 feet altitude, what could do this?







science-based geology weather volcanoes






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 hours ago









AgrajagAgrajag

6,27411143




6,27411143











  • $begingroup$
    I'd swear I read an article several years ago about someone over Australia having something like this happen.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Richardson
    35 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    I'd swear I read an article several years ago about someone over Australia having something like this happen.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Richardson
    35 mins ago















$begingroup$
I'd swear I read an article several years ago about someone over Australia having something like this happen.
$endgroup$
– Michael Richardson
35 mins ago




$begingroup$
I'd swear I read an article several years ago about someone over Australia having something like this happen.
$endgroup$
– Michael Richardson
35 mins ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















7












$begingroup$

Getting caught in a thunderstorm is the most likely cause. This can happen even to experts if they are incautious enough to take risks with the weather.



Here's an example with a paraglider. (I'll see what I can find for a hang-glider)




Ewa Wisnierska was sucked into a powerful thunderstorm while training
for the world paragliding championships in Australia. She was carried,
unconscious and wearing a layer of ice, to an altitude of more than
32,000 feet into the eye of the storm. https://youtu.be/IXLdsnB5VBw





Here's another - this is a good one because it is videoed with a live commentary from the pilot who escaped the updraft before it was too late.




Caught in Cloud Suck! - Life lesson from 3Km above sea level
https://youtu.be/FdoGtqCQ2ZY





Some science



Hang-gliders are likely to find it easier to escape a storm because their forward speed can be much greater that that of a paraglider. They should be able fly out of it provided they can keep a sense of direction.



Hang-glider Beginner wing 14 mph to 45 mph. Advanced wing - 16 mph, to over 100 mph which has been clocked in speed gliding competitions
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Paraglider Beginner wing 13mph to 22mph. Advanced wing - 14 mph to 35mph
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding




EDIT (from the same source)



See under Wind penetration where my above suggestion is supported.



http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Here is a claim that it can happen to hang-gliders as well but there is no reference to back it up.




In one reported incident, two hang gliders were caught in cloud suck
by the same storm clouds. Both gliders lost consciousness above 30,000
feet, one, happily, was released by the storm, and regained lucidity
before crashing into the ground. The other glider was not so
fortunate. His frozen body was discovered later and returned to his
family.
https://www.toysperiod.com/blog/extreme-sports/hang-gliders-in-the-sky/





Cloud suck



If you want to know how people get trapped and about emergency procedures for escape, then I suggest you Google "cloud suck".




Cloud suck is a phenomenon commonly known in paragliding, hang
gliding, and sailplane flying where pilots experience significant lift
due to a thermal under the base of cumulus clouds, especially towering
cumulus and cumulonimbus. The vertical extent of a cumulus cloud is a
good indicator of the strength of lift beneath it, and the potential
for cloud suck. Cloud suck most commonly occurs in low pressure
weather and in humid conditions.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    1 hour ago











Your Answer





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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









7












$begingroup$

Getting caught in a thunderstorm is the most likely cause. This can happen even to experts if they are incautious enough to take risks with the weather.



Here's an example with a paraglider. (I'll see what I can find for a hang-glider)




Ewa Wisnierska was sucked into a powerful thunderstorm while training
for the world paragliding championships in Australia. She was carried,
unconscious and wearing a layer of ice, to an altitude of more than
32,000 feet into the eye of the storm. https://youtu.be/IXLdsnB5VBw





Here's another - this is a good one because it is videoed with a live commentary from the pilot who escaped the updraft before it was too late.




Caught in Cloud Suck! - Life lesson from 3Km above sea level
https://youtu.be/FdoGtqCQ2ZY





Some science



Hang-gliders are likely to find it easier to escape a storm because their forward speed can be much greater that that of a paraglider. They should be able fly out of it provided they can keep a sense of direction.



Hang-glider Beginner wing 14 mph to 45 mph. Advanced wing - 16 mph, to over 100 mph which has been clocked in speed gliding competitions
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Paraglider Beginner wing 13mph to 22mph. Advanced wing - 14 mph to 35mph
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding




EDIT (from the same source)



See under Wind penetration where my above suggestion is supported.



http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Here is a claim that it can happen to hang-gliders as well but there is no reference to back it up.




In one reported incident, two hang gliders were caught in cloud suck
by the same storm clouds. Both gliders lost consciousness above 30,000
feet, one, happily, was released by the storm, and regained lucidity
before crashing into the ground. The other glider was not so
fortunate. His frozen body was discovered later and returned to his
family.
https://www.toysperiod.com/blog/extreme-sports/hang-gliders-in-the-sky/





Cloud suck



If you want to know how people get trapped and about emergency procedures for escape, then I suggest you Google "cloud suck".




Cloud suck is a phenomenon commonly known in paragliding, hang
gliding, and sailplane flying where pilots experience significant lift
due to a thermal under the base of cumulus clouds, especially towering
cumulus and cumulonimbus. The vertical extent of a cumulus cloud is a
good indicator of the strength of lift beneath it, and the potential
for cloud suck. Cloud suck most commonly occurs in low pressure
weather and in humid conditions.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    1 hour ago















7












$begingroup$

Getting caught in a thunderstorm is the most likely cause. This can happen even to experts if they are incautious enough to take risks with the weather.



Here's an example with a paraglider. (I'll see what I can find for a hang-glider)




Ewa Wisnierska was sucked into a powerful thunderstorm while training
for the world paragliding championships in Australia. She was carried,
unconscious and wearing a layer of ice, to an altitude of more than
32,000 feet into the eye of the storm. https://youtu.be/IXLdsnB5VBw





Here's another - this is a good one because it is videoed with a live commentary from the pilot who escaped the updraft before it was too late.




Caught in Cloud Suck! - Life lesson from 3Km above sea level
https://youtu.be/FdoGtqCQ2ZY





Some science



Hang-gliders are likely to find it easier to escape a storm because their forward speed can be much greater that that of a paraglider. They should be able fly out of it provided they can keep a sense of direction.



Hang-glider Beginner wing 14 mph to 45 mph. Advanced wing - 16 mph, to over 100 mph which has been clocked in speed gliding competitions
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Paraglider Beginner wing 13mph to 22mph. Advanced wing - 14 mph to 35mph
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding




EDIT (from the same source)



See under Wind penetration where my above suggestion is supported.



http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Here is a claim that it can happen to hang-gliders as well but there is no reference to back it up.




In one reported incident, two hang gliders were caught in cloud suck
by the same storm clouds. Both gliders lost consciousness above 30,000
feet, one, happily, was released by the storm, and regained lucidity
before crashing into the ground. The other glider was not so
fortunate. His frozen body was discovered later and returned to his
family.
https://www.toysperiod.com/blog/extreme-sports/hang-gliders-in-the-sky/





Cloud suck



If you want to know how people get trapped and about emergency procedures for escape, then I suggest you Google "cloud suck".




Cloud suck is a phenomenon commonly known in paragliding, hang
gliding, and sailplane flying where pilots experience significant lift
due to a thermal under the base of cumulus clouds, especially towering
cumulus and cumulonimbus. The vertical extent of a cumulus cloud is a
good indicator of the strength of lift beneath it, and the potential
for cloud suck. Cloud suck most commonly occurs in low pressure
weather and in humid conditions.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    1 hour ago













7












7








7





$begingroup$

Getting caught in a thunderstorm is the most likely cause. This can happen even to experts if they are incautious enough to take risks with the weather.



Here's an example with a paraglider. (I'll see what I can find for a hang-glider)




Ewa Wisnierska was sucked into a powerful thunderstorm while training
for the world paragliding championships in Australia. She was carried,
unconscious and wearing a layer of ice, to an altitude of more than
32,000 feet into the eye of the storm. https://youtu.be/IXLdsnB5VBw





Here's another - this is a good one because it is videoed with a live commentary from the pilot who escaped the updraft before it was too late.




Caught in Cloud Suck! - Life lesson from 3Km above sea level
https://youtu.be/FdoGtqCQ2ZY





Some science



Hang-gliders are likely to find it easier to escape a storm because their forward speed can be much greater that that of a paraglider. They should be able fly out of it provided they can keep a sense of direction.



Hang-glider Beginner wing 14 mph to 45 mph. Advanced wing - 16 mph, to over 100 mph which has been clocked in speed gliding competitions
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Paraglider Beginner wing 13mph to 22mph. Advanced wing - 14 mph to 35mph
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding




EDIT (from the same source)



See under Wind penetration where my above suggestion is supported.



http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Here is a claim that it can happen to hang-gliders as well but there is no reference to back it up.




In one reported incident, two hang gliders were caught in cloud suck
by the same storm clouds. Both gliders lost consciousness above 30,000
feet, one, happily, was released by the storm, and regained lucidity
before crashing into the ground. The other glider was not so
fortunate. His frozen body was discovered later and returned to his
family.
https://www.toysperiod.com/blog/extreme-sports/hang-gliders-in-the-sky/





Cloud suck



If you want to know how people get trapped and about emergency procedures for escape, then I suggest you Google "cloud suck".




Cloud suck is a phenomenon commonly known in paragliding, hang
gliding, and sailplane flying where pilots experience significant lift
due to a thermal under the base of cumulus clouds, especially towering
cumulus and cumulonimbus. The vertical extent of a cumulus cloud is a
good indicator of the strength of lift beneath it, and the potential
for cloud suck. Cloud suck most commonly occurs in low pressure
weather and in humid conditions.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Getting caught in a thunderstorm is the most likely cause. This can happen even to experts if they are incautious enough to take risks with the weather.



Here's an example with a paraglider. (I'll see what I can find for a hang-glider)




Ewa Wisnierska was sucked into a powerful thunderstorm while training
for the world paragliding championships in Australia. She was carried,
unconscious and wearing a layer of ice, to an altitude of more than
32,000 feet into the eye of the storm. https://youtu.be/IXLdsnB5VBw





Here's another - this is a good one because it is videoed with a live commentary from the pilot who escaped the updraft before it was too late.




Caught in Cloud Suck! - Life lesson from 3Km above sea level
https://youtu.be/FdoGtqCQ2ZY





Some science



Hang-gliders are likely to find it easier to escape a storm because their forward speed can be much greater that that of a paraglider. They should be able fly out of it provided they can keep a sense of direction.



Hang-glider Beginner wing 14 mph to 45 mph. Advanced wing - 16 mph, to over 100 mph which has been clocked in speed gliding competitions
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Paraglider Beginner wing 13mph to 22mph. Advanced wing - 14 mph to 35mph
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding




EDIT (from the same source)



See under Wind penetration where my above suggestion is supported.



http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Hang_Gliding_to_Paragliding



Here is a claim that it can happen to hang-gliders as well but there is no reference to back it up.




In one reported incident, two hang gliders were caught in cloud suck
by the same storm clouds. Both gliders lost consciousness above 30,000
feet, one, happily, was released by the storm, and regained lucidity
before crashing into the ground. The other glider was not so
fortunate. His frozen body was discovered later and returned to his
family.
https://www.toysperiod.com/blog/extreme-sports/hang-gliders-in-the-sky/





Cloud suck



If you want to know how people get trapped and about emergency procedures for escape, then I suggest you Google "cloud suck".




Cloud suck is a phenomenon commonly known in paragliding, hang
gliding, and sailplane flying where pilots experience significant lift
due to a thermal under the base of cumulus clouds, especially towering
cumulus and cumulonimbus. The vertical extent of a cumulus cloud is a
good indicator of the strength of lift beneath it, and the potential
for cloud suck. Cloud suck most commonly occurs in low pressure
weather and in humid conditions.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_suck








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 59 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









chasly from UKchasly from UK

19.4k882172




19.4k882172











  • $begingroup$
    Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    1 hour ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
    $endgroup$
    – Agrajag
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    1 hour ago















$begingroup$
Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
$endgroup$
– Agrajag
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Ok, I'd no idea it was that easy for even the experienced pilot, I need to improve my research methodology. Good answer. +1
$endgroup$
– Agrajag
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
@Agrajag - I've done a bit of paragliding and hang-gliding!
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
@Agrajag - Does it have to be a hang-glider or could it be a paraglider? I've yet to find any evidence of the former being trapped in a storm cloud. Probably due to the difference in forward speed (see edit to my answer).
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
1 hour ago













$begingroup$
I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
$endgroup$
– Agrajag
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
I wasn't going to be specific 'till I'd decided. I'm just going with hang glider beginner, but keeping an open mind regarding the actual tech. I'll take it all in and use the ideas, or something different that springs from them.
$endgroup$
– Agrajag
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
This is definitive answer to the question. +1.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
1 hour ago

















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